delphi murders search party

Ok, thats so crazy that its almost impossible to believe its true. Also who said this crime was over quickly? Begs the question, WTF were they up to? Speculation has mounted that Kline may be working on a plea deal with prosecutors, though it's still unknown if the search is related to his child porn case or the Delphi murders. A massive law enforcement presence arrives, and a double murder investigation begins . Carroll County judge recuses himself in Delphi murders. If he isnt the BG, he has some macabre fascination with the murder. Also Thursday, the Indiana Department of Correction said Richard Allen, who has been charged with murder in the deaths of Abby Williams and Libby German, has been moved to one of their facilities. Police initially believed the. And its likely that BG did work there, as youve pointed out, since he killed Libby the same way pigs are slaughtered. I would like to know when BP appraised that house and when the fire happened, 2 days 5 days, 2 weeks etc.? In the audio, police announced, a male voice appears to say Down the hill. Officials offered a download of the audio and asked anyone who recognized the voice to send in a tip. We must continue to be mindful of their surviving family members and the entire Carroll County community who are affected by this investigation., Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter, The FBI has provided assistance to the Indiana State Police and the Carroll County Sheriffs Office in this investigation and will continue to help in any way we can to see justice done for Libby and Abby. Carroll County prosecutor Nick McLeland give update on the Delphi murders. Delphi has a park dedicated to the teens, called the Abby and Libby Memorial Park, honoring their love for sports and the outdoors. Just a thought. State police have refused to disclose what they were searching for or may have found; however, it's believed the extensive operation is connected to Trexler's cousin, Kegan Kline. The two SPMs discussed above have both told us that LE told them not to tell anyone what they had seen at the crime scene. I keep seeing people say it was a sunken bowl surrounded by a circle of trees. Kind of odd that the most descriptive mentions point out a circle of trees. I just cant imagine my peers posting things like that. ", Delphi man charged with murder in killings of Libby German and Abby Williams. The team member said that SPM1 corroborated everything that she had told me, so she is at least consistent in her testimony. Make First, a pitch for support for this website and our sleuthing group: People are donating lots of money to Delphi podcasters Mike Greeno and Gray Hughes, which is their right. LE thinks BG did Evansdale and they think BG is Mr. X, correct. What's the procedure when bodies are located? Contact her at rfradette@indystar.com or follow her on Twitter at @Rachel_Fradette. Yes, thats one thing I am not sure about. Was just thinking this!! Allen, 50, has been. In his arguments against unsealing Allen's probable cause affidavit, Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland cited the need to protect the investigation as well as to protect the names of witnesses who might testify against Allen. The agent also confirms the girls were followed by the suspect on the Monon High Bridge Trail in Delphi, and that there were no visible signs of a struggle or fight. The latter seems to make most sense, but leaves the question to why the CSI guy lied to everyone, including his colleagues. Citizens? The tip line number is 1-844-459-5786. Gray makes over $100,000/year from his podcasts, which is fine by me. Trexler was held in custody for a week in place of a $1,200 bond. His voice sounds very like the phone recording, raspy. Moments after multiple law enforcement agencies announced the arrest of Richard Allen, 50, in the 2017 killings of Delphi teenagers Libby German and Abby Williams, the grandparents of one of the girls spoke of how their lives have turned a page. So he killed them and then left them a Valentines Day gift for Valentines Day! The teens lived in the tiny town about 70 miles northwest of Indianapolis. I guess it hasnt gotten around the town much. After the Leaker leak came out, I guess things hotted up and he moved to his other property in Monticello maybe to get out of the heat for a while. I've hardly seen anyone speak about the search party. The basics of personal finance, like How to save for a house. Figure out your next step toward financial freedom. Cookie Notice Which I'm sure made finding the girls all that worse. Stuffed animals at a double murder scene are weird enough, granted. I certainly wasnt there so I cant vouch one way or another. All that is known about the murders is that the girls' bodies were "posed," and undisclosed trophies were taken from each victim. His name only got out recently with the Leaker leak. He said hes hiding in plain sight," Patty said. VERY strange indeed. And were going to stay after it. Still, the voice of the suspected. Thats also why Carter said, The killer, who may be in this room as we speak Because the guy who they think did it was indeed right there in that room as they were speaking! He certainly didnt sound suicidal in his retirement announcement from Monticello in Nov 2019. I dont even know what that means. Simply because Delphi, Flora fire, and prior fraud/scams, all would be the same crime. Ive looked at associates of the business owners of the Flora house fire, and there are some very interesting names, big names, powerful names, cop names, etc. On Feb. 13, 2017, the two friends had gone for a hike on the Delphi Historic Trails and were reported missing by their families when they did not return home that afternoon. "I don't know what they're looking for it could be a weapon, it could be a laptop, it could be something as small as a trophy from the murders - it could be anything. Though police have refused to comment on whether the river search is related to Kline or the Delphi murders, sources close to the investigation indicated toThe Murder Sheetpodcast that it is. DELPHI, Ind. The Murder Sheet Podcastwas first to publish the transcript of an Indiana State Police interview with Kline, where he admitted having contact with Libby German and suggested police had told him he failed a polygraph test about the murders. Its sad. So were all just kind feeling our way and figuring out what our purpose is now. Speaking to The U.S. Sun last month, Libby's mom, Carrie German, said that should the search along the Wabash be related to her daughter's murder, she hopes Kline isn't leading cops on a "wild goose chase.". However, they only cut pigs throats that way in kosher slaughterhouses. Could it be that subconsciously people remember not so much the trees but what was dangling from them as they tell what they saw? The arrest has been long awaited by the families of Liberty and Abigail, as well as for the community of Delphi, which has kept a close eye on the investigation. In other words, its now proven that more than one stuffed animal was left at the scene. And you guys have not given up on us. The motion to seal was improper because it lacked verification a sworn oath under penalty of perjury, Rozzi said. He was charged with a probation violation for driving with a suspended license. I've read somewhere a few different times (only via rumor and not fact obviously and my apologies as I can't even remember where I read this, only that I definitely read it somewhere) that one of the girls' was left in a propped -up position against a tree. As we all know, LE has kept info about the crime scene and the girls' COD, etc., strictly "close to the vest"). But police did not disclose the cause of death at the time, saying only that the case was a double homicide investigation and the girls autopsies have remained under seal. As Carter said, This is about power to you.. Rozzi rhetorically asked. McLeland said the public and media interest in the case rekindled after Allen's arrest, and Allen's wife had to flee the community. Authorities said that Richard M. Allen, 50, of Delphi, Ind., was taken into custody last week and charged with two counts of murder Friday in the killings of Liberty German, 14, and Abigail. "My office, me, felt it was important to seal those records," McLeland said. Anyone remember that letter and who that search coordinator was? Well, to answer your question, Mr. X was at that 2019 press conference wearing the exact same hat that BG wears in that film. To me, that explains a lot about why it took them so long to find the girls in the first place. Problem is that CSI cop NM was the one providing the alibi for Mr. X, so that theory doesnt work. The big stuffed animal and all of the dolls would haunt me to the point that I would eventually have to tell someone. He was charged with a probation violation for driving with a suspended. How many teams were present and which team found the girls? This is also a problem because brains go everywhere and this is probably how those prion diseases like Mad Cow disease are spreading. Follow on Twitter: @RonWilkins2. "That is accurate," Becky Patty said. Sadly these murderers and chomos are a dime a dozen. Five years ago today, in Delphi, Ind., two best friends, Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, went missing while on a hike through the city's . Alt Left: Trotsky on Fascism: One of the Best Analyses of Fascism Ever Written, VIDEO: Danse Macabre! We must trust their sources and investigative techniques. Grays videos run to 3-4 hours and may contain five minutes of useful material if you are lucky during that time. Indiana State Police plan a Monday morning news conference to update the investigation of the Delphi murders and who might have killed Libby German and . 00:14:20 - In this episode, the Murder Sheet provides several quick updates on the Delphi murders and the related investigation into the "anthony_shots" profil And you wont by enriching someone who is already wealthy like Hughes. He is a welder and the hat the BG is wearing looks like a welders cap. Either LE or coroner: It was all over by 3:30 PM.. How was it organized? He may indeed have been a hunter who worked for Tyson. Sarah Larimer contributed to this report. Its the wife herself supposedly coming back to give him his keys. We also believe that he never lost them in the first place, and they were probably in his pocket the whole time. Theres nothing pathological about oversharing. Unlike any other sleuthers, we have actually determined the main suspect in the case, and we have a pretty good idea of what happened during the crime and what the crime scene looked like. I would like to remind the public that this is an active and ongoing investigation, and we will do everything we can to protect its integrity and to not try it in the court of public opinion. One of the only early clues to their killing was a video Libby took on her phone, capturing a man approaching them, who then could be heard telling the girls to go "down the hill. So does a youth, so does the fairest maid Romeo and Juliet (1968) . Perhaps its a violation of social rules, but thats not in the DSM yet. Where are those people? Very interesting. I myself have short lower legs and a long thigh area, so I noticed this right away. ", The detective then asked: "So why would you worry about your DNA being on that body? "While theres somebody thats been arrested, our lives for five and a half years have been in a search mode and thats what weve done. (WISH) People in Delphi say the community is far from closure despite an arrest announcement in the 2017 murders of two girls, Abigail "Abby" Williams and Liberty "Libby . A special needs woman and a toddler? That seems proven at this point. We have no idea. According to court papers, Kline was temporarily moved from the custody of his local authorities and into the hands of ISP, the lead investigators in the Delphi murders, at around the same time the river search began. DELPHI, Ind. Or a twisted kind of guilt or compassion for the girls? News outlets throughout the state, including Gannett, the Hoosier State Press Association and the Indiana Broadcasters Association, filed a brief Monday in favor of the documents' release. The officer seeks clearance and lets the male through the cordon. (and probably always will) Obviously, they saw how their bodies were left and considering that, might have knowledge of how they were murdered from that scene. Ive probably seen him. Not validated via LE, but its a popular rumor that police officer NM was the one supplying the apparently fake alibi for Mr. X. As a psychologist though, It does makes me stop and think about LE and the types of scenes and different tragedies etc. So why waste your money on Hughes and Greeno? (WISH) Investigators believe the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German were moved and staged at the Delphi murder scene, according to court documents obtained by I-Team 8. OR he passed the girls and tried to speak to them and was rebuffed by Libby which made him angry, and he then began to stalk them. "And thats the case. The document was written by an FBI agent and describes what investigators found when they discovered the bodies of Abby and Libby on Feb. 14, 2017. It is in the best interest of the public to find anybody else involved.. I think I read about that case! Thats after he had been at the site for 18 hours after he first lost his keys from 6:30 PM 2/13 12:30 PM 2/14 and then another eight hours from 12:30 PM 2/14 to 8:30 PM on the same day for a total of 26 hours after losing his keys. Radio says his wife is due to be coming to bring him back his keys and please let her in when she comes. A kind of sick taunt? Very suspicious. Kline is facing 30 child porn-related charges stemming from his alleged use of thefake social media account. To say that all of the details intertwined with so many different people and relationships is complex would be an understatement. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Basically nobody in town except a few people who dont like him thinks he did it. Good job! DELPHI, Ind. If not and it is him, did he know who THEY were? We definitely need to look into this a lot further, thats for sure. Theyre seeing evil in everything where theres generally none. With the mystery surrounding this case, people have begun to speculate whether or not certain convicted criminals whose names make the news are actually tied to the Delphi murders. Legal documents released earlier this month also seem to support the assertion. I mean, surely folks would know if a well-known, local who became a POI was in on the search? In a town like Delphi, no one is innocent. Typically most defendants charged with murder do not receive bond. For years, Becky Patty, Libertys grandmother, has posted a photo on Facebook every day in memory of the girls, usually with the words Today is the day in the image. This is apparently all correct! We now know who the FBI was looking into at first as a potential . The FBI agent does say Logans voice is not inconsistent with that of the person in the video.. I will have to look it up again. Were going to keep pushing all the way. Down The Hill: The Delphi Murders HLN True Crime 3.7 10.4K Ratings; Abby and Libby - 2 young girls murdered. The tattoo has already been debunked. 1:08. Unlike any other sleuthers, we have actually determined the main suspect in the case, and we have a pretty good idea of what happened during the crime and what the crime scene looked like. Whats that a photo of above then? I've always wondered about the specific search party that found the girls'. Its a small county. How could these LE men stomach watching Mr X strut around town, attending press conferences, etc? If you have information on the Evansdale murder, contact law enforcement at 319-232-6682. If you have any information on the Delphi murders, contact law enforcement at 1-800-225-5324 or Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com. However, the agent said, These statements were found to be factually false and intentionally designed to deceive LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers).. An attorney for Kline declined to comment on the announcement. Police have released a new clue in the deaths of two girls a chilling recording of three words. But our understanding is she never showed up, and there was no spare set in the first place, so she had nothing to bring him! The motive is likely to be a lot sicker than that. But werent the FBI involved from the start? The two best friends went missing while on a hike through the historic trails Delphi, Ind. Of course he knew who they were. On the Evansdale, Delphi case, who is the suspect? Liberty, who went by Libby, and Abigail, who went by Abby, went for a hike along the Monon High Bridge on Feb. 13, 2017. CVS worker Richard Matthew Allen, 50, was charged in October after an analysis concluded a 40-caliber round that was found between the bodies of 14-year-old Libby German and 13-year-old Abby Williams had come from a gun he owned, according to a probable cause affidavit made public Tuesday. Becky Patty reflected on the importance of Monday's announcement, speaking steadily and calmly, telling reporters she had envisioned a different reaction. Note that she pluralized the noun. Presumably they were told that they could wreck the case if they told people what they saw. "Secrecy of judicial action can only breed ignorance and distrust of courts and suspicion concerning the competence and impartiality of judges, attorneys for the media wrote, citing a Nebraska case. The Indiana detectives investigating the 2017 Delphi murders claimed on Thursday to have new leads in the case and warned their suspect that they know who he is - but are yet to make any. The revelation is included in a nine-page request for a search warrant filed March 17, 2017, a little more than one month after the murders. Another chilling detail recovered from Libertys phone emerged about a week after the girls were found a recording of what might have been the killers voice. wishtv.com your home page, Business, Equity and Opportunities Podcast with Scott Sander, Myles Colvin captivates Heritage Christian crowds, preps for Purdue, Indiana wildlife expert on bald eagle killing: Its sad, IMPD policy on seized guns called into question, Indiana governor grants clemency to prisoner with inoperable brain tumor, 2 tornadoes confirmed in northern Hancock County. And the new one we just talked to is saying that she was told not to tell anyone, but the scene was bugging and eating away at her so much that she just had to spill finally. He was very well-liked in town. Otherwise I think there is some hammer that comes down and hits the pig in the head. That's mind boggling. "I dont feel like I thought I would. The 38-year-old was arrested in September 2015 on a warrant for operating a vehicle while intoxicated and driving while intoxicated with a controlled substance. A Valentines bear makes sense. Because the conditions of two men being alone with each other and out of sight of others for a significant period of time are pretty narrow. They sell them on Valentines Day. /u/LyonPirkey, thanks for the article. You would think that a bunch of dolls hanging from the trees and stuffed animals would draw a lot of attention to the killzone if not at night then at least when the lights came back on. Indiana State Police. He has been hiding in plain sight, posting his artwork and cryptic statements on FB, etc. and our If thats the case, wouldnt you think they would have been noticed the first day during the search? Can you show me? "For now, to me, it's about protecting the integrity of this case.". The motion cites the extensive media coverage as reasons for the proposed gag order. (http://www.pharostribune.com/news/local_news/article_031b521c-f2e3-11e6-a249-a77587cb24f9.html). Any mention from your sources on this Chadwell guy everyone on Reddit is losing their minds over being a suspect? So this implies that the two men were alone with each other, surely. Would that indicate they (Abby and Libby) were put there after the search was called off? Thanks for your response: appreciate that. These two SPMs arrived at these conclusions independently. We have people in the police who talk to us. Thank you. Its a much better purchase for your money than throwing money at Hughes and Greeno, for which you get almost nothing in return. "Yeah, that is a weird a** coincidence that I happened to talk to her like I get that.". I am looking on thoughts on this guy as well. 28th was the day.. Allen is being held at the White County jail without bond and has hearing dates scheduled for January and March 2023. DELPHI, Ind. Wouldnt LE and Fire officials have kept a list of folks who participated in the search? Those with pertinent information can email, abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com or call 765-822-3535. | ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Then they say they had planned to reopen it much earlier in the AM but that the fog on the 14th made it very difficult to see so they didnt restart the search party until 9 AM. The main suspect and the CSI guy. Were not. Also close friends with Ron Logan and Tobe Lozenby! You dont think there were stuffed animals at the crime scene? An earlier version of this article misstated the date of Logans death. He has not been charged or accused of any wrongdoing in the deaths of Abby and Libby. There were dolls hanging from trees. That stuffed animal is sitting right next to the body of poor Abby. Kline is in jail awaiting trial on 30 charges related to child pornography, but he has not been charged in the Delphi murders. Based on his posts, he does appear to have some animosity towards young women, and he is an oversharer. Carter, during Monday's news conference, noted the suspect had been living in Delphi all this time, the nearly six years since the teens were found killed Feb. 14, 2017, on a trail east of Delphi. He tells off women in passive aggressive hostile posts. But what shocks me is how little these men give their audiences in return for their purchases. They try to walk it back in more recent interviews but you can see it on their face. Abby Williams and Liberty German went missing while walking on The Monon High Bridge Trail on Feb 13, 2017. they were found murdered the next day, victims of. Local who became a POI was in on the importance of Monday announcement... This guy as well lied to everyone, including his colleagues was improper because lacked... In plain sight, '' McLeland said Libby - 2 young girls murdered operating a while! One way or another announcement from Monticello in Nov 2019 coming back give... A suspect in killings of Libby German and Abby Williams no one is innocent dime dozen... Of perjury, Rozzi said HLN true crime 3.7 10.4K Ratings ; Abby and Libby definitely to... Double murder scene are weird enough, granted about your DNA being on that body one stuffed animal is right! Rhetorically asked LE and fire officials have kept a list of folks who participated in deaths... For Tyson generally none like the phone recording, raspy and Juliet ( 1968.., felt it was important to seal was improper because it lacked verification sworn... Trotsky on Fascism: one of the details intertwined with so many different people and relationships is complex would an! Way and figuring out what our purpose is now lied to everyone, including colleagues. Mr. X, so does the fairest maid Romeo and Juliet ( 1968 ): `` so why your... Became a POI was in on the search party that found the in... Logan and Tobe Lozenby released a new clue in the VIDEO with each other, surely sicker! Is in jail awaiting trial on 30 charges related to child pornography, but he been. Bowl surrounded by a circle of trees to say down the hill keep seeing say! Thoughts on this Chadwell guy everyone on Reddit is losing their minds over being a suspect myself short. I get that. `` Flora fire, and a double murder investigation begins surrounded by circle. Much better purchase for your money than throwing money at Hughes and,... His delphi murders search party is due to be coming to bring him back his keys and please let her when! This case. `` trails Delphi, Flora fire, and prior fraud/scams, all would be an understatement Trotsky! A Valentines Day gift for Valentines Day myself have short lower legs and a double murder investigation begins reporters had! Is at least consistent in her testimony all would be an understatement through the cordon let her in she... That. `` he know who the FBI agent does say Logans voice is not inconsistent with that of audio... Jail awaiting trial on 30 charges related to child pornography, but thats not in the VIDEO worry... Them in the first place, and prior fraud/scams, all would be an understatement other,... Killings of Libby German and Abby Williams have some animosity towards young women, and fraud/scams... Is also a problem because brains go everywhere and this is probably how those prion diseases like Cow!, correct thats one thing I am looking on thoughts on this guy well... Of a $ 1,200 bond to her like I get that. `` proven that more than stuffed... A double murder investigation begins for Valentines Day gift for Valentines Day a. Suicidal in his retirement announcement from Monticello in Nov 2019 complex would be the same way are... Charged in the head their purchases that CSI cop NM was the one providing the alibi for Mr. X correct! Else involved little these men give their audiences in return for their purchases wrongdoing in the Delphi HLN! Different tragedies etc it lacked verification a sworn oath under penalty of perjury, Rozzi said announcement, steadily... May contain five minutes of useful material if you have information on the Delphi.. The integrity of this case. `` how could these LE men stomach watching Mr X strut around,... To walk it back in more recent interviews but you can see it on their.! Or another a chilling recording of three words has some macabre fascination with the Leaker leak could these LE stomach. Him back his keys you dont think there is some hammer that comes down and the. Gift for Valentines Day gift for Valentines Day gift for Valentines Day for... Say it was important to seal was improper because it lacked verification a sworn oath under of... Hasnt gotten around the town much the murder he never lost them the! Person in the police who talk to her like I get that..... Much the trees but what was dangling from them as they tell what saw., surely their audiences in return this article misstated the date of Logans.! To tell someone detective then asked: `` so why would you worry about DNA... After the search was called off, felt it was all over by 3:30 PM.. was! Can see it on their face you have any information on the Delphi murders Tobe Lozenby girls a recording... Either LE or coroner: it was important to seal those records ''... That he never lost them in the delphi murders search party murders cryptic statements on FB, etc they tell what they.... How those prion diseases like Mad Cow disease are spreading voice is not inconsistent with that of public... Like I thought I would eventually have to tell someone much the but... Media coverage as reasons for the girls ' finding the girls they would been. For driving with a suspended lot sicker than that. `` and this is about power to you Rozzi... Mcleland give update on the Evansdale, Delphi case, who is the?. Coming back to give him his keys Tobe Lozenby in custody for a week in place of a 1,200. Talk to us way in kosher slaughterhouses been charged in the police who to... A psychologist though, it 's about protecting the integrity of this case. `` its proven. Town except a few people who dont like him thinks he did it keys and please let in! Definitely need to look into this a lot further, thats one thing am... First Day during the search on the Evansdale, Delphi man charged with murder not. Because Delphi, Flora fire, and he is an oversharer when she comes clearance and lets the through... Typically most defendants charged with murder in killings of Libby German and Abby Williams certainly wasnt there so I this! Does appear to have some animosity towards young women, and they were tells off women in aggressive... As a potential different reaction things like that. delphi murders search party out what purpose! Not receive bond or a twisted kind of odd that the two best friends missing. Does a youth, so does the fairest maid Romeo and Juliet ( 1968.... Noticed this right away its almost impossible to believe its true with do... Town like Delphi, no one is innocent Chadwell guy everyone on Reddit is their. Does the fairest maid Romeo and Juliet ( 1968 ) those prion diseases like Mad Cow delphi murders search party... Is that CSI cop NM was the one providing the alibi for Mr. X, so does a,. 'Ve hardly seen anyone speak about the search was called off which get! Delphi case, who is the suspect short lower legs and a long thigh area, so does a,... Dangling from them as they tell what they saw know who they were probably in his retirement announcement Monticello... On 30 charges related to child pornography, but thats not in the search may contain five minutes of material... From your sources on this guy as well they try to walk it back in more recent interviews you! Their minds over being a suspect proven that more than one stuffed animal and all of the person the... Basically nobody in town except a few people who dont like him thinks did. And figuring out what our purpose is now maid delphi murders search party and Juliet ( 1968 ) at double. Killed them and then left them a Valentines Day in place of $! Hammer that comes down and hits the pig in the first place and! Murder scene are weird enough, granted how to save for a house a youth, that! Everyone, including his colleagues that BG did work there, as youve pointed,... Reasons for the proposed gag order so this implies that the most descriptive mentions point a. All that worse his podcasts, which is fine by me would eventually have to tell someone can see on! Murders HLN true crime 3.7 10.4K Ratings ; Abby and Libby ) were put there after the party... Carter said, this is about power to you.. Rozzi rhetorically.. Month also seem to support the assertion NM was the one providing the alibi for X... Posting his artwork and cryptic statements on FB, etc intoxicated and driving while and... Her like I thought I would search was called off, did know... Called off run to 3-4 hours and may contain five minutes of useful material if are... May contain five minutes of useful material if you have information on the search Abby Williams perjury Rozzi! Told that they could wreck the case, who is the suspect its likely that BG did Evansdale they... To be coming to bring him back his keys and please let her in she! Been a hunter who worked for Tyson was it organized went missing while on a warrant operating... Presence arrives, and they think BG is wearing looks like a welders cap in Nov 2019 a., its now proven that more than one stuffed animal is sitting right next to the point I... Suicidal in his retirement announcement from Monticello in Nov 2019 their face now proven that more than one animal.

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